Bowmen classes and apq

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Acrobat

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May 1, 2020
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Hey,
I'll start the APQ.
Amoria pq has a limit of 4 times a day, taking in avg of 40min,
there is one reason for doing apq and that's for the onix apples.
In avg you get 8 apples per 4 runs (my avg is even worse but irrelevant).
In my opinion, 8 apples aren't worthy enough for the time invested in this pq because 8 apples aren't enough for a full daily routine of most bosses (and training if you're hardcore like me).
Not to mention, that it doesn't save as much time as the time spent getting these apples.
Furthermore, this pq is hella annoying containing 2 stages, stages 1 and 5, where mobility skills like haste tp fj ain't working.
my suggestion for APQ:
1. increase drop rate of apples from boxes
2. Shorten stage 5 or remove it completely
3. enable mobility skills in stage 1

Bowmen classes ( Marksman + BowMaster)
I would like to mention that I enjoy the Marksman class a lot.
The class got nice buffs giving it big early game power spike, but sadly that's about it.
Bowmen classes with the buffs they got (MM got some, BM got very little) are still getting hard outclassed by the other classes... keeping them SE mules like they always were.
comparing to the NL for example, which is an all-rounded class.
from OP alchemist, high mobility, high avoidability, better scaling from W.att, jump attack mechanism and better dps in general, there is just no reason not to pick MM/BM over NL.
NL with the same gear as me without all the necessary offensive Level 40 skill books deal x2 dmg in expeditions due to higher damage from TT over 6 lines strafe adding the high avoidability and mobility (the biggest difference is at CHt for example... I spend most of my time climbing ladders while they are up on the platforms attacking and if they fall they just use flash jump + cht misses them when they climb).
NL with better gear than mine + all level 40 skill books do x3-4 my damage.

comparing to cleave classes, for example hero or other aoe classes like bucc and shad... I have nothing to add but the fact that cleave and other aoe classes out damage or almost out damage MM/BM and corsair vs single targets which is absurd.


From my personal point of view about the MM class ( I cannot say anything about BM as I'm not playing it... I just know it's very weak) there are 3 major problems regarding of the class's damage and some more mini problems.

1. Snipe, the skill gives the MM class a huge power spike early game but as the game progresses it becomes almost irrelevant.
the skill is capped at 500k from lvl 1, I currently do 120k crit lines with apple with strafe vs cht with almost late game gear (Thank you KyleXY for lending me your gear to test).
If I do the avg amount of crits which is 3 out of 6 lines my strafe dmg around 450k.
With cast time of snipe + mini delay of changing between skills I find almost no reason to use snipe.

2. Strafe and Hurricane are getting out damage by NL's TT and other buffed classes (mostly hero, bucc and shad which there is no doubt that they are the top classes in server)

3. Lack of mobility/avoidability/power stance/i-frames of any kind.
The Lack of these things above is well known to the players that decide to take one for the team by picking a class that has an essential party buff.
But, to make the classes relevant cause it's lacking these stats/features/skills means that if you want to keep the bowmen classes relevant they need to deal more damage than they currently deal to cover up for the lost time walking around, climbing ladder, getting stunned etc.

4. MM class has a great mobbing potential with piercing arrow, in my opinion the buff to cast time is still not enough as the skill gets canceled a lot from high damage mobs like the mini-bosses in HoH... personally don't mind I prefer to fight vs single target.
The piercing arrow buff looks very minor comparing to other mobbing skills buffs like dragon strike, brandish, DrK skill and shad skills that i don't know their names.


to sum it all up,
I'm sorry that I didn't bring any numbers or stats and it's all based on feelings of me and other players.
I wish bowmen classes (and corsair) got the right buffs or general balancing to the other shining classes to make them relevant and make this game more diverse.
Compared a lot to NL, since they sit in the same type of classes (range single target).

Thanks for taking the time to read this.
 
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Kyubey

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Mar 23, 2020
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MM is really powerful earlygame, and that's why if i made an archer i would 100% go MM (bowmaster has nothing to offer). if i were to make a change on Archers, i would give them more avoid, and adding a extra line to BM Hurricane wouldn't hurt

Please give corsairs more avoid too.
 

waiting

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Jun 18, 2019
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Bowmen classes ( Marksman + BowMaster)
Let me start by saying that even freefire dpm wise, bowmen are utter dogshit. When i used my corsair in krex and zak, I am winning against bowmen 30-50 levels higher than me in DPM. I have a 60% scrolled gun, which already shows that potential dpm of the bowman classes is pathetic. Furthermore, bowmen have much lower damage uptime than many other classes especially in expeds such as HT/CHT. This eats even more into their already pathetic freefire dpm.

In CHT, my BM who apples from the start of prehead 1 until the end of the exped deals less than 1/3 of the total damage of cleaves. If you assume the best possible scenario for cleaves dividing this figure by 3 and assuming they are cleaving for the entire run in order to get the lower bound for their single target dpm, this already shows that I am losing to cleaves on single targets. This also happens even in single target expeds (like PB where melee classes literally AFK half the statue phase), and I am still losing handily in damage despite narcing all the way. The state of damage balancing is completely ridiculous at this point.

NL is a slightly different story. They have one of the highest damage uptime in the game due to high avoid and mobility. However the tradeoff for their strong kit is that they are completely party buff reliant for maximum output (SE and HB for 1: PB maximizing attacks until end of reflect animation; and 2: CHT for safer FJing through B), and dispel/dark wyverns clip their wings enough that they can't help to remedy the situation via killing mobs at all.

no reason to use snipe
While it is true that snipe gets outscaled by strafe quite easily in dpm, snipe still has a variety of use cases such as PB body and killing durable summons in CHT and PB.

hero, bucc and shad
The problem with these classes is that the first two seem almost completely broken but the fact is they're only allowed to be this way because of how absurdly strong shadower still is, so the first two seem almost... balanced. The only other class who can impact the kill order in CHT as much as shadower is aran, but for some reason no one plays it, understandably so but not because of the CTS issue that many people think it's about. Aran in CHT requires strong mechanics and awareness in order to maintain combo and dodge stuns, as well as consistency in timing your final blow string inputs*. Whereas shadower just holds down their assassinate or bot macro at the correct position and easily maximizes their damage potential. Oh, forgot to mention that Aran requires SI and SE to top the damage charts.

*The window for starting your subsequent final blow input in order not to lose dps is about 50ms (~3 frames) after the first attack point of the final blow animation. If you miss this window, there is a lockout of about 100ms where no inputs will register, and the next window where you can start the next string input is about 150ms after this, at the end of the second attack point. This leads to a significant enough dps loss that you're better off not using final blow at all if you can't time this consistently. There are top-level fighting game input timing optimizations that are more lenient than this, and you need to pull this off for an entire 1 hour or so per CHT run.

mobility/avoidability/power stance/i-frames
Key weakness of the class that has very little ways to play around, particularly for marksmen as they can't momentum cancel.

essential party buff
The only reason why I still play my bowmaster is because it's on the same ID as my corsair and there's a lack of SEs that even pay attention to their party members' reconnects and buff timers.

MM class has a great mobbing potential
In the time you take to charge up one pierce, any other cleave has already killed the group of mobs and used their mobility skill to get to the next group. MM is a great mobber is actually completely untrue. They have a unique mobbing kit but they're not strong.

bowmen classes (and corsair) got the right buffs
I just want to be able to match or out dps cleaves on single targets. Is that too much to ask? Class balance felt alright to me pre 250 because weak classes like Dark knight, Marksman and Buccaneer were completely garbage and the classes I played (bowmaster, bishop, paladin) felt middle of the pack, so it didn't feel too bad to be made fun of by shadower players constantly for not dealing any damage. In fact, paladin had been the top dps class in HT back then. But it's just awful right now to be a buff mule in a server that has class changes and yet has such a terrible state of ranged vs melee balancing.


corsairs more avoid
Corsairs are already middle of the pack. I think you might want to try improving your gameplay and acquiring your endgame skillbooks and equips before commenting on the class as it is.
 
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Acrobat

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May 1, 2020
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adding an extra line to BM Hurricane wouldn't hurt
MM ONLY out DPS BM while having Speen infusion on ... both need a buff.
It would be appreciated if you learned both classes, their ups and downs, and their mechanics before commenting on this serious post of mine.
The lack of avoidability and being immobile is something I knew in advance picking the marksman class, adding avoidability to the class will just keep it a low tier se mule for NL.


Teryl,
couldn't write better myself, agreed with everything.

NLs are completely SE reliant... that's true but unlike BM, MMs are also party buff reliant cause they need SI to maximize their damage.
for the record, not comparing there... SE adds a much bigger boost to NLs than SI to MMs, which is another topic as SE description is kinda wrong mentioning 40% rather than 140% to the low % TT which gives it such a huge boost.

While writing this post I didn't think of the PB snipe dmg which remains 500k and its uniqueness there.
IMO, snipe needs to dmg through weapon cancel and DR as according to skill description "lethal blow to a monster by aiming to its weak spot" (when I join my first PB snipe damaged through DR not it doesn't) if it remains capped at 500k giving that unique mechanism sounds like a good buff to the skill.

Taking PB as an example for cleaves out damage us is perfect.
warriors that cannot hit the eagle statues still out damage us.

Personally I'm not expecting MMs to be mobbers, I'm saying it has the potential but it's so unimportant for me cause I looked for a single target class.
Just mentioned that the piercing arrow buff is so minor compared to the Dragon strike buff that basically allowed buccs to be 2nd best mobbers after ran (maybe 3rd since shad are broken but since I trained with buccs for a long time I know how OP their mobbing is right now + according to DPM chart they aren't that much behind shad in a static environment not adding to the equation shad's avoid of course).

Thank you teryl :)
 

akashsky

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Jun 6, 2019
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I think the point about APQ is irrelevant. APQ is a content that is meant to be done by lower level characters to get apples to sell to higher level characters for funding.

Lets step back and look at this objectively for a moment and see if it makes sense for APQ to be worth the time.

Does it make sense that farming a special potion to use in a boss expedition and then doing said boss expedition should be more efficient than simply doing said boss expedition?.

Why should doing two things be more efficient than just doing 1 thing?

Farming apples and then using the apples on a boss run should NOT be more efficient than just doing the boss run.

The only reason that farming apples should be worthwhile is if you need to finish an expedition within a certain time limit.

As for MM and BM buffs, I can't really comment since I have not yet truly experienced end game (i am still 17x and still trying to max my level 40 books and get good gear).

What I can say however, is that the balance between MM and BM looks good imo. MM does better DPS with SI on easy bosses and BM does better DPS on harder bosses (due to more control tricks and avoid).

If both classes are still bad compared to everything else, one thing we can look at is increasing the base critical rate of critical shot from 40% -> 50%. So that with SE, bowmasters can match nightlords in critical % rate.
 

waiting

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Jun 18, 2019
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MM does better DPS with SI on easy bosses and BM does better DPS on harder bosses (due to more control tricks and avoid).
I'm not currently outdpsing either of the endgame Marksmen on CHT or PB. Even HT is quite close and only if I super tryhard and optimize my play. I severely doubt my play is extremely unskilled to the point of not being able to maximize bowmaster's potential in these expeds; I'm sure anyone who has bossed with me a lot can vouch for me in that regard. So I think MM does better in most bosses. However, I'm not trying to debate the relative performance of these 2 classes; it's kind of pointless rationalizing who is worst or second worst when we are lacking behind every other class (except paladin) by quite a fair bit.
 

Kyubey

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Mar 23, 2020
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While i get your point, only want endgame fellows/friends to comment on your post i should ignore that as it's public content.

it's obvious bow classes are lackluster when thinking of the top classes (bucc, shad) but that only means those 2 should be nerfed, not the other way around, i dont think it's a smart move to have every class on that power level.

more avoid for these ranged classes means your life gets a bit easier to having to reposition everytime u get knockbacked = more time hitting the boss

and since i can post whatever i want. ill go ahead and highlight shadowers get meso guard, 200 extra hp from strengthening scrolls, high avoid/accuracy and have a macro to maximize dpm.
 

waiting

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Jun 18, 2019
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While i get your point
You are completely missing my point. I've seen you play corsair before and you're outdpsed by my corsair which was 20 levels below you even if we adjust for the fact that I have bsc40 and you don't. Either you're wearing crap gear or you're not playing corsair well or both. You need to understand that corsair has a lot of potential if you maximize it, and furthermore I'm quite sure you haven't been to CHT or PB with yours given that you wanted boat to not be dispellable, when it's actually a good thing in those expeds. You probably don't have a good grasp of how the class works in endgame situations, so you need to actually observe or experience for yourself endgame corsair gameplay, then you'll know what i'm talking about.


(bucc, shad) but that only means those 2 should be nerfed
I don't think we should be nerfing classes here, but honestly I don't care if they were at this point. I'm not campaigning for class nerfs.

more avoid for these ranged classes means your life gets a bit easier to having to reposition everytime u get knockbacked = more time hitting the boss
You say this almost as if I don't know it. Almost as if I'd invested a couple billion in resources to create a set of avoid gear on my bm. And why I feel the class feels great to play now given that I have 700 avoid, aside from the fact that I deal no damage despite having similar or better gear than some of my friends who have been around for as long as I have been. Randomly adding avoid to low avoid classes has a huge effect on increasing their DPM, something that feels largely invisible yet is very powerful. I would advise against doing this because it doesn't reward existing corsair play patterns, while being a blatant strong buff that the class doesn't really need right now. Furthermore, I don't think you have a good understanding of how ranged classes scale given that you've thrown out things like this:

extra line to BM Hurricane
and then you say this:

i dont think it's a smart move to have every class on that power level
after asking for a buff on corsair which is already decent right now.

shadowers get meso guard, 200 extra hp from strengthening scrolls, high avoid/accuracy and have a macro to maximize dpm.
I think everyone in this thread already understands that shadower has top tier dps in most situations while simultaneously having the highest effective HP and avoidability, along with being one of the easiest classes to play. But this isn't a thread about shadower. If you're campaigning for shadower and bucc nerfs please open a new thread and we can discuss that there.
 

rogerbrown

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May 16, 2019
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-APQ got buffed alot the drop rates and time extended on bonus. Imo the only thing that should increase is the PQ points which is really bad.

-Sair got buffed alot too from last patch which already made them back to DPS. They really recieved huge buffs from lv40 books. 5Lines+40% beacon, higher move speed on boat, cd lowered, hp boat increased. (maybe change their avoid formula to same as bucc?)

-BM/MM shouldnt out DPS sair/NL single target
but snipe maybe need increase dmg cap, maybe could change Piercing 40>30 to Snipe 30>40 and increase cap to 800k-1m or
make snipe 8 lines or something and huge % damage. (at least thats how some servers did it to balance cap dmg)
MM still needs si for max damage, warriors also needs si!

-BM maybe increase Hurricane base power?
it is weird because strafe40 is 6 lines of 160% and hurricane is about 8 arrow 160% per sec, strafe hitting faster than hurricane arrows?

-but at CHT it cant help about stun, maybe reduce his accuracy because even NL gets hits very often.
 

Incognito

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Apr 5, 2020
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Why should doing two things be more efficient than just doing 1 thing?

Farming apples and then using the apples on a boss run should NOT be more efficient than just doing the boss run.

The only reason that farming apples should be worthwhile is if you need to finish an expedition within a certain time limit.
This logic is inherently flawed as it does not consider the ease of gameplay. Would you rather fight one Wiseman Solomon or two Ariel statues? Solomon spams awful skills, while Ariel does nothing special and is essentially an HP wall. How about two Hunin statues? Less HP, but if I'm a melee, I don't choose that because of damage reflection. How about two Solomon Rex, which is still annoying, but less so? Depending on your class and what your skillsets are, everyone may have a different choice.

On a similar token, I would rather spend an hour doing APQ to save 30mins in a Chaos Horntail run, because even though I have played for 30mins longer, I have saved 30mins of far more difficult gameplay.

Overarching time efficiency should not be conflated with value by default.
 
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akashsky

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Jun 6, 2019
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This logic is inherently flawed as it does not consider the ease of gameplay. Would you rather fight one Wiseman Solomon or two Ariel statues? Solomon spams awful skills, while Ariel does nothing special and is essentially an HP wall. How about two Hunin statues? Less HP, but if I'm a melee, I don't choose that because of damage reflection. How about two Solomon Rex, which is still annoying, but less so? Depending on your class and what your skillsets are, everyone may have a different choice.

On a similar token, I would rather spend an hour doing APQ to save 30mins in a Chaos Horntail run, because even though I have played for 30mins longer, I have saved 30mins of far more difficult gameplay.

Overarching time efficiency should not be conflated with value by default.
There's nothing wrong with spending 1 hr on APQ to save 30mins on a cht run.
I think there is something wrong if you spend 15mins on APQ to save 30 mins on chaos horntail.
 
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Incognito

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There's nothing wrong with spending 1 hr on APQ to save 30mins on a cht run.
I think there is something wrong if you spend 15mins on APQ to save 30 mins on chaos horntail.
I’d be curious as to the breakdown of your numbers to support this claim as it is clearly a powerful statement to say that this much time is being saved.
 

rogerbrown

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Apq changed to 4x daily instead of 6 hours cd per ticket, bonus time increased, and drop rate being average 15 apples a day (4pqs). That is really good buff compared to what it was initially. Where you would get like 6...
 
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dreaM

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Amoria pq has a limit of 4 times a day, taking in avg of 40min,
there is one reason for doing apq and that's for the onix apples.
In avg you get 8 apples per 4 runs (my avg is even worse but irrelevant).
In my opinion, 8 apples aren't worthy enough for the time invested in this pq because 8 apples aren't enough for a full daily routine of most bosses (and training if you're hardcore like me).
Why are we comparing expeditions to party quests? It is not only "hardcore" players that engage in this party quest. As @rogerbrown said, we removed the vanilla 6 hour cooldown and allowed players to complete all 4 daily party quests consecutively while also being able to prepare and collect all required tickets in one go.

1. Snipe, the skill gives the MM class a huge power spike early game but as the game progresses it becomes almost irrelevant.
Following today's patch, snipe now scales with your dex.

2. Strafe and Hurricane are getting out damage by NL's TT and other buffed classes (mostly hero, bucc and shad which there is no doubt that they are the top classes in server)
Marksman's Strafe has already received a generous amount of buffs since the server's inception. Based on expedition damage logs, it is evident that Marksmans are among the top. In your case, you are even contesting the likes of players that have played for a year straight. That being said, you should not be comparing yourself to every class and hoping for skill changes to place you at the top of the pack.

3. Lack of mobility/avoidability/power stance/i-frames of any kind.
We are not going to completely alter classes so they are identical.

4. MM class has a great mobbing potential with piercing arrow, in my opinion the buff to cast time is still not enough as the skill gets canceled a lot from high damage mobs like the mini-bosses in HoH... personally don't mind I prefer to fight vs single target.
Unfortunately these mechanics are hard-coded in the client. The skill's damage has been significantly buffed so that it can be worth using if you are able to get into the right position. Piercing Arrow now has instant cast time! In the case of end-game grinding, we have designed KC4 and HoH to cater for ranged characters.
 
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