Problems with expeditions - Rewards, progression and accesibility

Rewards, Multi PC


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waiting

Member
Jun 18, 2019
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I would like to highlight some key problems with the raiding/expedition meta in its current state, and how they affect the server as a whole. While I propose some solutions to address these, I'm writing to GD because I honestly don't think these are solid enough to solve the problems and thus would like to know what the rest of the community thinks about them. Perhaps some good solutions could arise from meaningful discussion here.

The problems are as follows:

Low rewards from expeditions

Gone are the days of Zakum, Scarlion, Targa helmets and Skillbooks (200m Genesis 20 anyone?) having any value - These are basically worthless to most of the players who attend expeditions regularly. We hold on to these and hand them out to new players for free all the time so they have pretty much no associated value. On a side note, I had someone haggle with me for a zhelm when it was at sok price on my store lol.

Inkwell's coin shop

The coin shop has been in the game since I first joined the server in May last year and had been hit with a couple of recent nerfs (which have been reverted since), presumably in order to slow down endgame progression. @dreaM has shared that he had not intended for the coin shop to be the main source of progression for the player. I don't like this because it's basically shoehorning every player into camping Ulu 1 on 2x drop the whole day and throwing it into the gachapon in order to make any meaningful gear progress on their 4th job main character at all. The fact is that majority of our WS and CS come from the coin shop - something that shows playing your main character (a class you folks probably enjoy playing a lot more than myself) is something you can do while still being able to earn those white scrolls to upgrade your gear.

Pandora's box

This incentive has been added a couple of months ago and I really liked being able to get the box and open it for some sweet rewards such as heartstopper (remember when we were arguing about their droprates? Now they drop so much from the box you can basically use them 24/7!) and Cash Shop Surprise aka CSS0%. On a serious note though, in this iteration of the box, your character had a chance to acquire the box from an expedition which increased with how many HP scrolls you'd passed. Whenever you got the box, you'd open it to get that juicy reward inside. This is great and I had received several WS, CS, CSS1020, Naricain Elixirs and Apples in the time where the boxes were in this state. I'm sure many players enjoyed this iteration very much.

However, a recent revamp of the box system kind of griefed players who hadn't had their 15/15 HP scrolls. You now get the box every expedition (whenever it doesn't randomly bug and not do so, of course), but the quality of rewards you get increase with the number of HP scrolls you've passed. Why would I, currently at 13/15, open the box now and lose out on rewards now? It's more efficient to wait till 15/15 before opening them, in order to maximize the chances of obtaining scarce and valuable items such as coins, WS/CS/CSS, and attack pots. Ironic, isn't it? Something added to the game to increase rewards has actually deincentivized me to go to expeditions. Why don't I just go to Ulu 1 for 1 hour and earn 50m to gach with instead of doing krex and zak for a measly 12 coin and 4 boxes I can't open? This also deincentivizes new players who are at like 3/15 to not open the box until they are 15/15 (good luck TBH, with how infrequently we run Chaos Zakum).

Lol just get some friends who are 15/15 to help you open the box - I have no friends and I hate everyone.

The problem with this are the untradeable rewards, with the biggest offenders being coins (the number you get scale with HP scrolls) and GFA15, that you would very much like to have on your own character. Also, GFMA15 exists which is just pure grief and serves solely to troll you and/or occupy a use slot in your inventory, why is this even in the reward list.

The original system was really good - maybe simply scale the box acquisition chance to be 100% / 15 * number of HP scrolls, and remove the scaling of reward tiers. That way, when you get the box, you feel good cause you can open it and maybe receive a white scroll on your first box. If you're 15/15 you literally lose nothing; Everyone's happy.

Didn't you guys raid everyday even before implementation of Pandora's box anyway? - Yeah, but that's also because I hate playing mage and if you're a low level (<170) you still get significant experience from Krexel and Zakum anyway. Not what I was trying to address.

Alternatively, remove the whole pandora's box system so that coin gain and rewards can be rebalanced more easily to be in line with intended progression pace as well as making it more simple to balance. It's true that we raided everyday even when box didn't exist. Maybe I'm just annoyed that all my friends can open boxes to receive sweet shiny heartstoppers while I can't because my ruby RNG is garbage. Maybe I just expect free shit to be given to me all the time. Either way, the system as it is makes me feel bad going to bosses knowing I'll get basically nothing each time.

Experience from expeditions

The only expeditions that people gain significant experience from past level 170 or so are HT and toad, and neither of these expeditions give experience rates remotely close to meta grinding methods (Dojo, RGS, Bigfoot, Shaolin Floor 6). Can you imagine how shitty it is to grind a NL or Corsair to 200 when nobody's willing to go to HT with you and you don't have a BM to do dojo with and you just don't like playing your mage?

Grinding methodRequirementsClasses eligible
Dojo party- Bowmaster or strong attacker class + bishop
- Decent amount of points
All
RGS 2x with leechers- PuppetBowmaster, Marksman
- HBNight Lord, Corsair
- 366 accuracyHero, Paladin, Dark Knight, Buccaneer, Aran
- NoneShadower
Bigfoot 2x with leechers- Strong attacker classHero, Paladin, Buccaneer, Corsair, Shadower, Aran (?)
Shaolin Floor 6 2x leech- Strong bishop or arch mageAll
Shaolin Floor 6 (attacking)- NonePaladin, Aran, Hero, Dark Knight, Shadower

To give you an idea of how atrocious the experience rates are in bosses, when @julie was 197, he had received 20% from two HT's (taking 3 hours including preparation and run time), using apples for basically the whole run. In comparison, I was able to solo dojo on my BM and acquire that 20% in 1 hour give or take. Bear in mind dojo takes no resources whatsoever and I have garbage gear aside from maybe my MoN, and I'm still somehow levelling faster than an endgame fully geared NL! Not to mention, dojo leeching yourself with your own mules is massively macro efficient and potentially achieves that same experience rate on every character.

Experience being bad from expeditions may just be because the meta grinding methods are too strong. But honestly I would be for keeping these methods the way they are - you still need some diligence to camp area bosses or grind to dojo cap on your alts in order to get these rates. It's also only fair to let new players use them to catch up in levels, right?

Muling for more coins aka multi PCing

Waiting is just upset he can't afford a second PC - No, I have 5 PC's in my household and you guys know I would abuse them to get 60 coins per HT if I really cared enough to. This is not about me being upset that others multi PC.

Let's face it - no one likes multi PCing to bring in mules just to maximize coin gain, because it's troublesome. But it's there and why wouldn't you do it to at least maximize your coin gain because otherwise you gain so little from the expedition anyway. As a result, everyone does it, even going as far as bringing two mules to leech coins while your main character is on CD and you farm on your mage. Players are gaining twice the amount of coins they should be getting, and they only really bother because the rewards are already scarce. Removal of the ability to do this would again make coin gain more easily balanceable and ease discrepancy between veterans who multi and newbies who don't.

Waiting is just trying to grief us by nerfing coin gain - Again, no. I would like this to be addressed because of...

There's a mechanic which prevents one from multiclienting into expeditions on the same PC. Understandably, otherwise everyone would bring in 10 characters each and gain 120 coins per HT. BUT there are ways to fix this, and I feel that this should be addressed in order to facilitate the next suggestion vide infra.

Reward eligibility could be awarded to only one character per unique connection. Non-unique connections are already identifiable, so I suppose this is very possible to implement. Perhaps in conjuction with a damage check, say 5% of the total expedition HP to be dealt by a character in order to qualify it for reward. Now let's say I need a HB mule to run toad; I can multi in that mule on the same PC - multi PCing is honestly a hassle that I'm sure many players won't bother with if they could. What about the minmaxers who are going to hit 5% with a mule on each PC? Then they're actually contributing to the run and IMO they're earning their reward anyway.

e: While I think we'd do better without multi PCing to get extra rewards entirely, I recognize it's basically undetectable even if there are measures implemented to curb it. So instead of making players jump through hoops to be able to do this, why not straight up let everyone do it so that rewards are more easily balanceable.

Slow raid progression and poor accesibility

One of the great things about this game is that you can take a party of any size (2 to 30) and there is content you can access. Small party? Duo zak with your aran friend while you bring in an SE mule that dies with no wheels. Medium party? Go to HT or toad to get some nice experience (JK raiding is garbage experience now). 10 people? Go to CWKPQ and get some 97 attack glaives or 9 attack MoNs. Have a fun time. This is in contrast to many other MMOs that basically require you to have a specific party size for a specific piece of content: 4, 8, 10, 12, 20, 40 in order to maximize rewards or lose out on a ton. Some even go as far as stealth nerfing droprates to virtually zero if you don't go in with maximum party size.

What I don't like is being hard gated by class requirements - this isn't fun at all and it gates progress.

Let me explain - Imagine you want to run toad, but there are literally zero DKs active and your SE main has not enough HP to do the expedition. Or you want to run PB but your ranged party literally can't do the expedition with maxed book, czak helm, rex earring and 15/15. Or CHT has a map-wide magic attack that hits 20.5k. The former is just meh, it's just toad. While the latter two are ???

If the multiclient restriction were to be lifted, it'd be easier to bring useful mules in to make the content accessible. You could bring in a HB mule to toad if there are like 4 people available to do it, or an extra HB and SE to PB so that people can play a class that deals damage. Obviously this isn't necessary, but our 3 hours 9 attacker PB run is likely going to be the last one in a very long while. We're short on hands and I would very much like us to be able to at least keep attempting the great content that you've put in so much effort to implement in the server instead of it being there and we never do it because all our DK and SE quit cause of their class being horrible to play due to bugs and other miscellenia.

Maple isn't meant to be played with multiclient anyway - Whether or not this is true doesn't change the fact that we will do it anyway. And players who multi PC are going to continue to do it anyway. Why not give everyone the ability to do it - current abusers don't lose anything and players who don't multi PC can still bring in mules that are needed, increasing general content accessiblity for the low population that we currently have.

tl;dr: Low rewards, multiPCstory, can't do PB cause not enough base INT for 18750 wash
 
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rogerbrown

Contributor
Member
May 16, 2019
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-multi client should be avaiable to every1, just make 5% or so damage check to prevent coins mules. - they will be used as buff tho, but what is the problem if it helps doing expeditions?

-Exp from expedition should be scalling for later lvs 170+?

-Pandora tier by scroll is bad, revert it back so we dont need 15/15 scrolls to open it, I agree on that

-Nerf pb a bit? reduce his damage a little? also make it able to threaten? (no DC ples lol)

-cwkpq pandora when? coin so low for ppl who already have MoN, bonus sux, only choco and gelt is useful which isnt guaranteed. Add more useful drops?
 

akashsky

Member
Jun 6, 2019
32
25
18
I think the BEST possible fix for this multi client nonsense is to allow everyone to do it (on the same PC) and then implement the following changes.

1) Make every SINGLE item from the coin shop UNTRADABLE.

2) Change the chaos scrolls and white scrolls in the store so that when you use them on any piece of gear, they make that gear UNTRADABLE.

This makes it so if you multi PC, you get more coins, but those coins are only good at progressing the character that was on the expedition.

Either that or you can balance the coin shop somehow so that it is okay with multi PCing. The other option is to add something to the game that allows people to do content without mules (i.e. some way to get enough HP to handle pink bean / chaos horntail without HB).
 
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jimsmiths

Member
Aug 26, 2020
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1
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I think the BEST possible fix for this multi client nonsense is to allow everyone to do it (on the same PC) and then implement the following changes.

1) Make every SINGLE item from the coin shop UNTRADABLE.

2) Change the chaos scrolls and white scrolls in the store so that when you use them on any piece of gear, they make that gear UNTRADABLE.

This makes it so if you multi PC, you get more coins, but those coins are only good at progressing the character that was on the expedition.

Either that or you can balance the coin shop somehow so that it is okay with multi PCing. The other official option is to add something to the game that allows people to do content without mules (i.e. some way to get enough HP to handle pink bean / chaos horntail without HB).
What should I do if my Problem is not fixing with both of given solutions?